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December 15, 2011

Comments

Big Swede

Those "authoritarian state" storm troopers?

Will you be able to pick off the right ones in your night scope?

Wulfgar

A night scope? COOL. 'You buying me one for Christmas?

Patia

Well said.

The Polish Wolf

"I have not so patiently waited while my betters told me that we would never have less than 50 thousand troops in country and our $50,000,000 bases would never be turned over to the Iraqis."

Mark, I believe, was the top among them.

lizard

Rob, while you lament the polarization, you feed it with your woe-is-me handwringing about how "The damage is multiplied because the left seeks desperately to believe the message from the right."

is it the left's fault that Democrats exploited war weariness over the Iraq disaster for their electoral victories in 2006, then sat on their hands as the war raged on?

anyway, the "end" of the Iraq war is nothing more than a repositioning of guns and boots. so buck up, cowboy. four more years of Obama will do nothing to avert our imperial nosedive and the growth of that "authoritarian state" you've supposedly been warning us about for 8 years.

Wulfgar

You're pretty funny, Lizard. You accuse me of feeding the polarization and then do exactly what I said your were doing. "Fuck Obama", That'll solve everything, right?

Big Swede

Got a ton of night scopes Rob.

Got 'em from Holder.

Susan Dirgham

Like you, I despair for the future of the world. I relate what you write to the US game plan for the ME in particular the current 'attacks' on Syria. And like you my concern has prompted me to set up a blog. http://susandirgham.wordpress.com/ It is still at the early stages, but I have uploaded lots of interviews, text etc onto another public page, one example of an interview is: http://pool.abc.net.au/media/fear-and-horror-syria-one-persons-account

lizard

voting for Democrats...that will solve everything, right?

Wulfgar

No, but voting for better people in Congress will.

lizard

those better people, if they do exist and want to run for office, must subject themselves to our pay-to-play political system. that hasn't worked out so well since the power brokers really started attacking Americans three decades ago under Reagan.

Wulfgar

You've spent so much time trying to paint me as a mindless Democrat that you've failed in your own responsibilities to the country. I am understandably curious, Liz. Have you got a better idea? I'm positive I'm not alone in breathlessly waiting for an answer.

lizard

I don't think you're mindless, just misguided. and I have no idea what you think my responsibilities to the country are, or how I am failing.

as for better ideas, it's going to take long term follow through to get to a better place, and that means not allowing short term reelection cycles to dominate one's political expectations.

also, any political momentum generated by, let's say, the occupy movement, needs to be withheld from supporting the democratic party. Obama is more than likely going to get reelected, and his reelection will not mean a goddamn thing to the general trajectory of this country.

I think the work to make a third party challenger viable for 2016 needs to start happening very soon. the Justice Party is interesting.

Eric

The war in Iraq was an "obvious injustice" ?

Sure, I can understand that way of thinking... Saddam Hussein was just a misunderstood, kindly old gentleman that President Bush hated, right ?

He never attacked friendly countries, and he never defied every UN resolution, and he never bluffed the world into thinking that he was stockpiling arms either, right ?

Your history is missing all the facts, and borderline revisionist Rob -

Face it, Americas fighting men liberated 50,000,000 people, and stabilized the region.

Wulfgar

Lizard, your responsibilities to your country are fairly clearly laid out in the Constitution. You are responsible, as are we all, for electing a representative government. By painting others as "misguided" and flatly rejecting any 'Party', you are avoiding that responsibility. People aren't parties. Further, your focus on the President *is* misguided. The President is chosen by an Electoral College (yet another monolith that needs to go away.) The representation that you are responsible for is the Congress. We can have a total loon in the White House (Ron Paul) and still have nothing more or less than the governance we have today.

This is fairly evident when you make the mistake that OWS is building "political momentum". We can argue all night about whether the Occupy movement actually has any momentum, though I submit Occupy Denver has done the 'movement' no favors. But even if I grant you momentum, there is nothing about it which is "political". To date, there are no candidates put forth by the Occupiers. There is no Occupy platform. There isn't even a coherent message save that folks are pissed. The only real result I see so far is that support has been lent to a Constitutional Amendment to repeal corporate personhood. Please remind me how many CAs have passed without the support of a resolution of Congress.

And I ask yet again, If you believe that parties are the problem because they have been co-opted by campaign finance, what exactly do you think will happen to a third party? What do you think will happen when corporate finance can be used as a spoiler? Those are political questions, largely ignored by the Occupy movement.

Getting better governance means voting for better people (or worse depending on where you stand.) A third party Presidential candidate is a placebo, an idea custom made to make some folks feel better. It won't actually change a thing. If you want political momentum for third-party thinking, elect those candidates to school board, city council or at best state ledg. And then hope they aren't corrupted by the very forces you seem to think control our representatives.

lizard

I vote Rob, so your statement that I've failed in my responsibilities to my country is crap, like the rest of your comment.

Wulfgar

Lizard, when you segregate who can be voted for and who cannot, you fail.

I was actually trying to have a discussion with you. But, emoprog norm, you simply can't abide disagreement. This does not surprise me.

lizard

"when you segregate who can be voted for and who cannot, you fail."

can you explain what you mean by that?

Wulfgar

It's not difficult, Liz. Democrats = bought and not to be trusted. Third Party = good. Neither of those make sense. Elizabeth Warren = bought. Ross Perot = good. I'm certain you see the dilemma.

lizard

politicians get bought, it's the nature of the game, more now than ever before. and they are responsive only to their big donors, because that's what gets them reelected, keeping their lying mouths close to the spigots of power, where they slurp and suckle.

of course our political system loves to keep a few charismatic figures around, like Sanders, Kucinich and Warren, because it keeps hope alive that better people can have some sort of counter-influence to the tsunami of cash that drives Washington.

despite all that, I still vote, but luckily more and more people are realizing voting is not enough, and in just 3 short months, OWS has caused the police state that protects the establishment to expend lots of resources to violently suppress occupations across the country. those protestors are putting themselves in harms way to show the rest of us how quickly and violently the state will react when the system itself is challenged.

and all you can do is poo-poo OWS. you're a good American, Rob.

Wulfgar

Not once have I ever "poo-poo"ed OWS. You, on the other hand, can just go fuck yourself. You are a poor American, Lizard.

lizard

Rob says: "But even if I grant you momentum, there is nothing about it which is "political". To date, there are no candidates put forth by the Occupiers. There is no Occupy platform. There isn't even a coherent message save that folks are pissed. The only real result I see so far is that support has been lent to a Constitutional Amendment to repeal corporate personhood."

this chunk of your statement exemplifies your ignorance. there are coherent messages, and there are more results than the one you highlighted.

Wulfgar
this chunk of your statement exemplifies your ignorance. there are coherent messages, and there are more results than the one you highlighted.

I notice that you can't name a single instance of either one. In my universe, Lizard, "poo-pooing" something is best accomplished by claiming achievements that aren't real. So, simple factual question: what has the Occupy movement accomplished? What are the messages that people have embraced? You sarcastically accuse me when you haven't the nads to even defend a position you claim is righteous. Cowboy up. Show what you know.

Here's what I've seen, Liz. I've seen Occupy Denver burn down a city park. I've seen Occupy Missoula deny alcohol on a sight where one in their encampment got an 11 year old so drunk he had to be hospitalized. I've seen good people get pepper sprayed and yet not one College President or Mayor (or actually any cop) has even payed the price for the action. So please, instruct me what Occupy has accomplished.

If you want to come to my webspace and tell me how 'ignorant' I am, you'd best have something to show, Lizard. So far, you don't.

Moorcat

(No Surprise), I agree wholeheartedly with Rob. The Occupy Movement has been far less successful than the Tea Party (they at least enjoyed political success in the last election). I have yet to see a single, tangeble result from teh Occupy Movement (short of the damage they have caused in multiple cities). Until they can show some kind of real world result, they are not something I will take seriously. As Rob has already pointed out, the only "message" they have put forth is "Damn, we are angry" and the Ultra-Rightwing, Nutjob Tea party did it better (they got results).

Getting back to the Article, my biggest fear today is the very rise of Authoritarian Powers (both in the Executive Branch of the Government and in Law Enforcement). To my knowledge, America has never been less "free" than it is now. Our rights are being assaulted in the Halls of Congress and in the "operating procedures" being written by the Law Enforcement Community and they get tighter and tighter every day. This REALLY bothers me but I seem to be powerless to do anything about it. I have written my Congress Critters and I have blogged about it but...

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